In recent weeks, there’s been a spate of YouTube influencers taking to their channels to say they’re feeling burned out, and that their mental health is suffering.
Much of the criticism from these influencers is that they’re feeling the pressure to “always be on”, regardless of how they feel and what’s happening in their lives at the time.
In this week’s episode of Marketing on Tap, we ask if the pressure to perform by these influencers is creating lasting damage, and what role brands play in the well-being of the influencers they use.
Settle back and enjoy this week’s topic, brought to you in the usual unscripted manner that you’ve come to expect when Sam and Danny take the mic.
If you prefer to listen on the go, the audio version of this week’s episode can be listened to below.
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Transcription:
Intro: Welcome to Marketing on Tap, a weekly podcast in which marketing pros and authors Sam Fiorella and Danny Brown, serve up the latest marketing hot topics, campaigns and trends, all washed down with a great craft beer. Join in for the fun as they debate the pros and cons of the topic of the week while featuring popular or up and coming micro breweries. Topics include influenced marketing, brand campaign successes and misses, customer advocacy programs, and marketing challenges facing businesses and agencies. It’s the marketing podcast to listen to for CMOs, senior sales executives, and key decision makers at mid to enterprise level organizations. And with their good natured bashing of each other, each episode promises to entertain and educate in equal measure. Welcome to Marketing on Tap.
Sam Fiorella: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Marketing on Tap. This is Sam Fiorella, and my mate, Danny Brown. We are, today, talking about YouTube and the burnout of YouTube celebrities. I picked this up … The reason I want to talk about it for those of you that follow me on other channels, you know recently I was a guest on CBC Radio Across Canada talking about this. And I just, as I was talking about it, the focus was on mental health. But, I think that there’s some real marketing implications for brand marketers, as well as wannabe influencers that would be relevant to this audience here.
So Danny, I’m going to read you two paragraphs from this Polygon article where we first learned about this. The title of the article is YouTube’s Top Creators Are Burning Out and Breaking Down En Masse. Three weeks ago, Bobby Burns, a YouTuber with just under one million subscribers, sat down on a rock in Central Park to talk about a recent mental health episode. One week ago, Al Mills, a creator with more than 1.2 million subscribers, uploaded a video that included vulnerable footage during a breakdown. Six days ago, Ruben Gunderson, the third most popular YouTuber in the world with just under 30 million subscribers, turned on his camera to talk to his viewers about the fear of an impending breakdown, and his decision to take a break from YouTube.
Burns, Mills, Gunderson aren’t alone. Eric Phillips, with four million subscribers, Benjamin Vestergaard, 2.7 million subscribers, and other top YouTubers have either announced brief hiatuses from the platform or discussed their own struggles with burnout in this past month alone. Everyone from PewDiePie with 62 million subscribers to Jake Paul with 15 million subscribers have dealt with burnout. Lately, however, it seems like more of YouTube’s top creators are coming forward with their mental health problems.
And so, I think this is really indicative of sort of the, maybe the collapse of this industry. At least of this part of the industry that I want to talk about. We somehow always end up in the area of influence marketing, because it’s just so prevalent in what everybody’s doing today. That’s what I want to explore today. But before we do that, as always, what did you just pour with that wonky can opener thing?
Danny Brown: The wonky can opener. It’s like the Wonky Donkey. This is Dragon’s Milk, Bourbon Bottle-Aged Stout.
Sam Fiorella: Nice.
Danny Brown: From New Holland Brewing over in Michigan in the U.S. It’s a new beer for us in Canada. The LCBO is starting to bring some of it in, but it’s got some … because it’s bourbon bottle-aged, it has a nice whiskey flavor going through. It’s a very warm and stout.
Sam Fiorella: I can almost smell the cask right away.
Danny Brown: Right, exactly, you can get a lot of oak and vanilla coming through, and malt, so it should be …
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: I chose it for three reasons. One, we just came back from Kentucky, bourbon capital.
Sam Fiorella: Yes.
Danny Brown: So, we brought bourbon. That makes sense. Two, it’s horrible, crappy weather outside, so a nice warm and stout for that. And three, it’s Halloween week, so dragon, Halloween?
Sam Fiorella: Oh, okay.
Danny Brown: I thought it was a nice little mixture. So anyhow, let’s see what it’s like.
Sam Fiorella: All right, cheers.
Danny Brown: Cheers, cheers, Robert.
Sam Fiorella: Cheers, Robbie. Oh Robert, you’re gonna hate this. Give me your glass. No, no, you don’t like it. Give me your glass.
Danny Brown: You can taste the vanilla in there.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: And there’s a coconut, almost, that comes through, on the back hand of that. You can … Yeah, and because it’s an imperial stout, you can feel the warm and you know, bottle-aged bourbon coming through right away.
Sam Fiorella: The warmth from the bourbon is there. I agree with you a hundred percent.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: I don’t taste the coconut as much, but definitely the vanilla is there.
Danny Brown: There’s a little sweetness there, for sure.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: So, vanilla, maybe coconut, something like that. But yeah, really [crosstalk 00:04:38].
Sam Fiorella: Really good, really good. Guys, this is so … If you’re in Ontario, Dragon’s Milk, [crosstalk 00:04:41].
Danny Brown: And if you … Interesting thing as well, this is an all year …
Sam Fiorella: Oh, really?
Danny Brown: … product from Dragon’s … Yeah, from New Holland.
Sam Fiorella: Oh, I can see that. I can see that.
Danny Brown: Yeah, so back in the U.S. is [inaudible 00:04:52], we’ve got a lot of listeners in the U.S. Great, great drink.
Sam Fiorella: Perfect, all right. So, I’m going to seriously, Rob, give me your glass.
Danny Brown: Oh, don’t, stay right … You don’t like it?
Sam Fiorella: No, no, this is not a Robert, not a Robert beer. I’m enjoying this one, though. I really like a stout. But, let’s get back to YouTube, which is really, why we’re here.
So, Danny, we deal with a lot of YouTube celebrities with the various clients that we work with. A lot of the research that we did when we wrote Influenced Marketing. Is this to be expected? And what do you think is leading to this burnout en mass, and everybody just basically calling it quits?
Danny Brown: Yeah, I think it’s two fold. I think from an influencer point of view, there’s pressure to be the biggest, to have the most followers, to get the most contract with brands, et cetera. And that’s how you build your influence, if you like. From a brand point of view, you want to get the people with the biggest voice, or the biggest opportunity to share your product or service with an audience.
So, you get these two coming together, it’s almost like two perfect storms hating each other in the middle, where you’ve got the influencer under pressure to perform from a numbers point of view, to your track brands, and brands under pressure to perform, you know, from a market and dollar point of view, with the biggest bang for the buck.
And I think, the pressure there, eventually, is going to eat, [inaudible 00:06:16]. And I think this is it. Because these guys need to always be on and do something different.
Sam Fiorella: Right, yeah. So, we have … For me, there’s two sides of this; There’s the mental health concerns that I’d like to talk about, because I think this is important for everybody to know. But also, you know, from a marketer’s standpoint, who are you reaching out to? How are you managing the talent that you’re finding in these channels?
One of the things that I don’t think a lot of people understand is, how YouTube works, and how a lot of these guys make their money.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: So, definitely, they make their money by views, right? The more views that they have, A, they might get a piece of revenue from the ads that are gonna get served up to them. But also, I think for them, it’s more the swag that they get, the free trips that they get, the sponsorships that they get paid for, placement of product in their videos or to do review videos, anything like that.
So, YouTubers, for those of you that don’t know, that’s how they make their money. And it can be pretty lucrative for, you know, some of them, especially the guys that are up in the millions of followers, can really make a decent living.
The problem, though, is to stay on top.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: Right, YouTube now, their algorithm helps you if you are posting frequently. So, if you’re posting every day, chances are they’re going to feature your video more so than if you’re posting once a week, because clearly, they’re like any other producer, any other television network. They’re looking for good content and for frequency.
So, the more you give them to make money on, the more they’re gonna promote you. And they understand, the good YouTubers are understanding that that’s what the algorithm is calling for.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: So, there’s constant pressure to produce new content, and they’re buckling under the pressure of that. Because a lot of these guys are really young.
Danny Brown: They’re kids, basically. They’re kids.
Sam Fiorella: You know what I mean, some of them are solo entrepreneurs, working out of their bedroom in some cases. You know, they’ve done enough success to, maybe, get some really good camera equipment and video editing equipment, but they don’t really have a team of people around them to help them develop this. So, this has really become a problem.
On the other side, though, where I want to talk about, is the businesses. So, what should a marketer do? What should a business do, that might be looking to go into this channel, with this fear that they’re gonna be potentially hiring somebody that’s burning out? Or they might be contributing to somebody burning out?
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: What can they do to, sort of, watch for this or prevent it?
Danny Brown: Well, I think, I mean, and it depends on the size of the business, obviously. But, most businesses have some form of employee program where HR, has a program in place to look after the well being. You know, they have a number you can call, a person you can go and speak to in HR, et cetera. And, I think if you’re going to work with someone, you know, online, you have to sort of make an extension of okay, I need be responsible for this person’s well being as well, because they’re essentially part of my brand. They’re part of my product offerings.
So, I think if businesses are going in just for the sake of using these guys, and using, I’m heavily emphasizing the word using, because I do find a lot of brands do use influencers, you know, unethically, if you like. So, I think there’s a responsibility for brands, now, to actually look and see how they’re taking care of the influencers itself.
Sam Fiorella: That’s mighty socialist of you.
Danny Brown: Well, I’m a Bernie Sanders guy, yeah, at heart.
Sam Fiorella: Are you a Bernie bro?
Danny Brown: I’m not gonna tell [inaudible 00:09:40], yeah, you know what? I’m not a Bernie bro, but I did agree with a lot of his stuff, [crosstalk 00:09:47].
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, we’re gonna, there’s gonna be one hell of a fight in this office.
Danny Brown: A fight outdoors.
Sam Fiorella: If you understand the makeup of our office after this podcast, but you know what? I’m not sure that I agree with you there, though, Danny. Because it isn’t … I don’t believe it’s the brand’s responsibility to protect a talent that they’re hiring on contract. Although, it is a nice thing to do if they can.
Danny Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Fiorella: But, you know, to treat them or to have them under the same employee benefit program that they have, then hire that person, which is a separate conversation.
Danny Brown: Well, yeah, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Because that’s something that I’ve always said about influencers, right? If you find, and this is the approach that I would take.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Maybe it’s a middle ground. I’ve always said, when you find an influencer out there that really producers interesting content and that can generate the kind of numbers that you’re hoping to engage, especially if it’s the right target for your product …
Danny Brown: Right, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Don’t give, don’t pay them to post on your behalf. Bring them on as talent. Hire them as a content developer under your brand, producing for you, creative ideas, and work that way. In that case, you’re bringing them in as an employee under your company, and then yes, extend whatever benefits you offer to the rest of your employees.
Danny Brown: Right, yeah, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: In that case, I think it’s good. Otherwise, I would say, brands should be particularly careful with YouTube. If they’re going to be going after YouTube celebrities, understand that this is an industry that is based quite a bit on B.S. You know what I mean? It is one of those industries where it’s been almost self created by celebrities for the sake of celebrities.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: The YouTube version of Paris Hilton, basically.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: Or, I’m gonna do whatever wacky thing I can do, to become famous and get a lot of viewers. And one of the things that I’ve been noticing, especially those that are blowing up, or not blowing up, combusting …
Danny Brown: Right, yeah, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: … publicly in the fashion industry, so makeup and fashion, a lot of them that are coming out are coming out to say, “Look, guys, this is all fake, right?”
Danny Brown: Yep.
Sam Fiorella: “This is all Photo Shopped.” A couple of them that I just read were publicly announcing that they’re buying followers, or that they’re being paid to say certain things that aren’t true. Or that they, themselves, are buying comments and likes to boost their numbers up so that YouTube will feature them.
Danny Brown: Yep. Well, it’s the same on Instagram, right? There’s a lot at the moment about the fake engagement on Instagram.
Sam Fiorella: That’s right.
Danny Brown: By bots that actually like it or just put a descriptive comment under the post script.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, that’s right. Well, just the fact that they have to do that.
Danny Brown: Yeah, yep.
Sam Fiorella: You know what I mean, already shows the pressure that is on these guys. So for me, like, again, I don’t want to diminish the importance of the mental health aspect of this and what it’s doing to these poor kids. And I think that’s something that we, as a society, need to address.
But specifically, for the purposes of this production, we’re talking to marketers. And so, what I would like to know, look to say, is YouTube celebrities, Instagram and YouTube, makeup and fashion were one of the first industries to sort of lead the push into developing and leveraging these influencers. And they’re the first ones now to be burning out and to be calling B.S. on this whole industry.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: Remember Joel [Lastrovsky 00:12:55], [inaudible 00:13:01].
Danny Brown: We spoke about, yep.
Sam Fiorella: That was a couple of episodes back, where he came out and said, “Yeah, look, this was complete … I’ve made a lot of money.”
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: You know, he was on music videos and you know, he had a deal for a television program. I don’t know if it was on Netflix or on cable TV, and he came out and said, “Yeah, it was all bullshit. It was all bullshit. I was selling air. You know, it was just for the sake of eyeballs, and I was getting paid for the sake of eyeballs, not necessarily for selling something.”
He walked away from it. And now, started an actual business.
Danny Brown: Yeah, he’s a wine company.
Sam Fiorella: But, he invested in a wine company, because he wanted to, said, “I need to sell something real.” So, for marketers now, I’m saying, look at this industry a little bit more objectively. Don’t buy into the hype, because if the first industry to sort of balloon, which was fashion and makeup on YouTube, they’re the ones who are leading the way, saying it was all B.S.
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: And you know, all the back room deals to get numbers up, fake followers. Then technology is gonna be next, manufacturing is gonna be next. Like, fitness, all the others that are sort of …
Danny Brown: Video games, [crosstalk 00:13:57].
Sam Fiorella: Video game reviews, computer reviews, all that kind of stuff, they’re gonna be next, I think, to show, I guess, sort of the dirty underbelly of that YouTube, Instagram, celebrity for the sake of celebrity interest. So, understand that this is probably coming, and be much, much more critical when it comes to hiring or selecting these YouTubers as an influencer.
And if they’re not gonna do that, who should they hire? How do you do it right?
Danny Brown: Right, well, I know there’s a company, I know they’re out of the U.K., or somewhere in Europe, that have got a piece of software now that can identify the fake influence, the fake engagement, et cetera. And they run a test on 10 [inaudible 00:14:42] or so called influencers, and about, it was something like 75 or 80 percent of their content or engagement is all bought.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: So, you’re thinking, unless you can afford to have that technology, how you gonna know what’s bought, what’s not bought? And you can certainly look at engagement, but still …
Sam Fiorella: That’s a good point.
Danny Brown: I think it’s tough for some brands coming in, if you don’t know what you’re doing, because you’ve hired, I need a work of influencers, but I don’t know what I’m doing, you know, how to actually connect and what I should be looking for metric wise, et cetera.
Sam Fiorella: Well, last week, we did our Influence Marketing Workshop here at the office with a number of big brands. And I know that was one of the topics of conversation, is that, how do I identify if they’re real or not? And one of the focuses, one of the, I guess, the instructions that I gave there, which is something we’ve talked about since we wrote the book, is well, stop focusing on the influencer.
Danny Brown: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: You know, a real influence marketing program focuses on the customer. How do they make a decision? And then, who sways that decision? And then, you determine who you want to engage. If you’re focusing on an influencer, you’re gonna be looking at somebody with big numbers.
Danny Brown: Right, yep.
Sam Fiorella: Right, and understand that these guys make money that way, and it’s very competitive. So, they’re going to want to drive up their numbers, right? So, that’s gonna be quite a problem if you’re not understanding that. And there’s a fundamental shift that I think has to happen with brands, that we’ve been preaching for awhile. And I think it’s just now starting to take hold. But maybe in part because of what we’re seeing.
Danny Brown: Because of this, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Is that, that shift, that I’m not going to hire somebody just because they’ve got a large audience. I’m gonna hire somebody based on their ability to move the needle for my business, which means, it has to be somebody that’s in my industry, people who use my product as an example.
Danny Brown: Right, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Fiorella: Right?
Danny Brown: Goes back to the relevance, right?
Sam Fiorella: Well, yeah, exactly. And I know this whole thing about situational influence and understanding who can overcome whatever is happening today. So, let’s talk about that. How do we, how does somebody then, go ahead? If you definitely want to use this channel, there are agencies out there that will sell you access to influencers, which presumably have vetted.
Danny Brown: Presumably, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, so …
Danny Brown: [inaudible 00:16:53] way back, 10, 12 years ago.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, exactly. So, you can certainly do that. But, how else would they do it, knowing that a lot of those agencies, because I know when those agents, those talent agencies, when you’re hiring an actor, there’s some kind of a guarantee. There’s a contract of service, that if they don’t give you whatever output has been sort of contracted, you will get some money back, or a portion of your money back.
Danny Brown: Right, yep.
Sam Fiorella: With influencers, all the contracts that I’ve seen, anyway, none of them will give you any kind of a guarantee. You know what I mean, that work is going to be performed, because this is not necessarily a professional audience. This is just a lot of kids working out of their bedrooms, right?
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: So, what other advice can we give people? What else can they do, to identify the right YouTuber or Instagram celebrity if, in fact, they wanted to go that route?
Danny Brown: Well, I think the key part goes back to relevance. But, you look for people that are already talking about your industry.
Sam Fiorella: Right.
Danny Brown: And your, even your niche within that industry. So, like, a sub industry, because they’ve already got a vested interest, and, you know, want a better products for their followers and their listeners. So, you find that, that’s a good starting point.
I don’t think it’s too bad an idea for brands to think about, “Okay, we’re looking for a minimum amount of commitment from you when it comes to some form of metrics.” Even fluff metrics, but some form of metric says, your average engagement is a thousand likes. We will be happy with 700. Can you give us that?
Sam Fiorella: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Danny Brown: Or something where you sort of look at and agree to agreement between brand and influencer that gives something back for the dollars you’re going to actually commit to it.
Sam Fiorella: I agree. You know, getting back to your employee contract idea, like, treating them like an employee, how would you do that if they were an employee?
Danny Brown: Right.
Sam Fiorella: That you got to, you have a job description and you’ve got job objectives, you know what I mean? And if you don’t meet your job objectives, guess what? You’re fired.
Danny Brown: Well, that’s like the clients we work with. We always work out a basic commitment with the influencers we work with.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: You know, we know that we’ve given you X, Y, Zed to, you know, give us feedback on, et cetera. This is the commitment we require from you. And the same, they know what’s expected then.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, no. That’s a good point. We’re getting the signal. Oh, [inaudible 00:19:02] the bell. There it is, the bell.
Robert: Yeah, [inaudible 00:19:11], so we’re actually getting darker if you’re watching [inaudible 00:19:13].
Danny Brown: Oh, okay. Oh, okay.
Sam Fiorella: [inaudible 00:19:12] is that what it is? So, apparently, we’re getting darker.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: Okay, oh, that’s a good producer, so, we gotta fix our bell. There’s something wrong with this bell. And we’re getting less call.
Danny Brown: Will you send us Steven, piece of crap.
Sam Fiorella: Maybe it’s this Halloween thing that’s going on right now. It’s possessed. So, let’s talk about that. Final thoughts on, I don’t know, maybe one piece of advice or one lesson learned that we’ve learned from our experience working with these YouTube celebrities with our case, or what we’re learning from what’s happening right now. I’ll go first. And for me, it’s don’t look for the influencer. As I said earlier, look for your customer. But, if you are gonna go and find influencers, once you know what makes, changes your customer’s sort of, decision making process or influences that, develop partnerships with them.
There’s nothing wrong with saying working together with them, right? And saying, “Okay, this is our objective. Give me some ideas of how we can achieve our objective. How can I help you? How will producing this content affect your channel?” And then, work together with what those objectives are.
If you develop a partnership with a good content producer, as opposed to just using them for volume, you’re gonna be, I think, a lot better off. Especially if you build in metrics. Say, “Look, we’re looking to sell X number of products. You know, help us sell this number of products, and then you’ll get paid based on the number of products you sell.”
Danny Brown: Yeah, yep.
Sam Fiorella: Which then, to your point is, if you find somebody who’s already engaged in this industry, is already using your product or a competitor’s product, then you know their followers are gonna be customers. So, it’s just gonna be a little bit more, I think, safer for your brand to use, and maybe help kill some of the pressure that we’re putting on.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: That’s, maybe, a bad word to use.
Danny Brown: Well, yeah.
Sam Fiorella: You know what I mean, stop some of the fake ballooning of these accounts that we see happening.
Danny Brown: Yeah.
Sam Fiorella: How about for you? What’s the one final thought you want to pull away?
Danny Brown: I’m gonna probably just, like, piggy backing that, and look at what the angle of your campaign is gonna be. What’s the reason for you working for influencers? Is it to sell product? Is it [inaudible 00:21:27], et cetera? And then, like you mention, actually get the influencers right for that particular goal. Because if you’re looking to, say, sell product, it’s no good getting a bunch of micro influencers that will raise awareness, but won’t actually drive anything along to actually purchase.
Sam Fiorella: Right.
Danny Brown: So, just really, look at influencer, as you mentioned. Make sure it’s right for the brand, the relevance and fit, and then look at the angle and build back from there. Same as an idea is building back from the customer.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah, that makes some sense. All right, thanks, mate. We appreciate it. Thanks to everybody for listening.
Danny Brown: Yep, and as we mentioned before, if you enjoy these videos, make sure you hit the like, subscribe, and the little bell at the top. Because we have a little bell. There’s a little bell up there somewhere.
Sam Fiorella: Here somewhere.
Danny Brown: [inaudible 00:22:06] notifications anytime Sam’s [inaudible 00:22:11]. Anytime that you see, like, our video gets published, you’ll get a notification. If you listen to the podcast, by all means, subscribe on your favorite channel. Soon [inaudible 00:22:15] on Spotify, which is nice.
Sam Fiorella: Yeah.
Danny Brown: So, anyway, subscribe in the podcast, and give us your feedback as to what you’d like to see in future episodes.
Sam Fiorella: And don’t forget, we’re not sponsored by any beer companies. So, if you have a beer you want us to try, send it to us. Because we’re cheap, and we like free beer. Cheers, everybody, thank you.
Danny Brown: Cheers, guys, cheers.
Sam Fiorella: Cheers.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Marketing on Tap with Sam Fiorella and Danny Brown. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next one. And please, feel free to leave a show review. That’s always worth a cheers.
The post Marketing on Tap Episode 16: YouTube Influencers, Brand Responsibility, & Mental Health Burnout appeared first on Sensei Marketing.